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New Repop Info

Discussion in 'Enkidu's Landing: General' started by El Pollo Diablo, Jan 13, 2017.

  1. hooby

    hooby thinker of thoughts
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    If it was more work than expected, then how comes that the TR-team finished the work almost two weeks ago and handed over the completed patch to the HE-team before the 5th of may?

    And if there is no problems on the HE-side of things, but it's all just those many assets and stuff on the Repop-Side of things which has been mentioned... how come that the HE-team now takes 3 weeks instead of 3 days to put it live?
     
  2. Volkoff

    Volkoff ENKIDU'S CRAFTING GUY
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    Yes.

    Yes. The majority of the TR team is looking to Condorslug and beyond.
     
  3. Fatdragon

    Fatdragon Pax Gaming Member
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    Bacon is good. <--- at least we can all agree on some things.


    Bacon isn't good, it's great! =^P

    I mean I haven't given up hope for the game, I'm just kinda down about playing it until we start seeing changes.
     
    Jalicejade likes this.
  4. Jalicejade

    Jalicejade Master Jedi JJ, the Repop Leader aka Plant Fodder
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  5. hooby

    hooby thinker of thoughts
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    They know they can play us for suckers because they hold the game hostage we are invested in.
    But they are pushing it too far. There is only so much shit I can take.
     
  6. Smallot

    Smallot Pax Gaming Member
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    I know you all have been waiting a lot longer than me but after how swg went before release i rarely listen to announced release dates. They seem to be set by people who have no concept of what needs to happen or how long it will take. Even in my job in commercial construction some guy in an office somewhere tells the client when the can move in and the client expects that date. After seeing some of the products that they are left with when everyone pushes to meet that insane deadline i wonder why the client couldnt wait at least an additional week to have a much better product.
     
  7. hooby

    hooby thinker of thoughts
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    We can wait for years. How long things take is NOT the problem.

    But being left in the dark about what is going on, and being lied to about the progress... that's unacceptable.
     
    #127 hooby, May 17, 2017
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
  8. Jalicejade

    Jalicejade Master Jedi JJ, the Repop Leader aka Plant Fodder
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    That is true. No communication and lies suck and that is what they keep doing. It has been happening for over a year.
    I'm soo over it myself. I just don't want to give up.
     
  9. Volkoff

    Volkoff ENKIDU'S CRAFTING GUY
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    At this point, what kind of communication would make everyone happy? I can certainly propose something to Sarrene and Hobble to find out if it an be done.
     
  10. hooby

    hooby thinker of thoughts
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    I don't think you can ever make absolutely everyone happy. That being said - anything other than they are doing now would piss off less people.

    My suggestion? Get back Holy Avenger One. Make him community manager - or "player's ambassador". Do NOT put any NDA on him. Encourage him to tell the truth. Give him direct access to all internal communication channels, allow him to ask questions, and tell the team they are suppossed to provide him with as much information as possible.

    Not that this is ever going to happen. IF got way too much to hide, to ever let the truth get out. Sarrene would rather murder someone, than come clean.
     
  11. hooby

    hooby thinker of thoughts
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    Also - post that Repop roadmap promised in January.

    And while at it, fix that page:
    http://heroengine.com/heroengine/he-roadmap
    It still shows those DX11 95% completed from early 2016 - but we all know work on DX11 only started (at 0%) in June 2016.

    Also remove all those fake games from www.heroenginegames.com - many of them have been cancelled or shut down in 2010 or 2011 - others are vaporware that never existed in the first place.

    Bring back the monthly progress reports - and skip the dramatics. Just list what has actually been achieved that month, without all that loaded language and spin doctoring and evasive excuses. Keep it to the point.

    Next: welcome constructive criticism. Admit existing problems - no evasion/denying/downplaying/whitewashing. Instead of counterarguing about the current situation rather detail future plans.
    Even if you disagree - respectfully state that you are of different opinion, but nevertheless always try to understand where the critcism is coming from.

    Stop seeing the community as your enemy. If this game shall succeed you need their help.

    At the very least, treat the community as customers - you are trying to sell them something. You have to show respect.

    Stop putting the HeroEngine on a pedestal. Accept that its strengths aren't ageing well, while it is crap in other regards. Again - cut the evasion/denying/downplaying/whitewashing part, and talk (realistic) future plans rather.

    Stop that sort of tone: "we have taken some precious time out of our immensely tight schedules, so that we can we throw some scraps of information in front of you pigs - you better kiss our feet for our outstanding generosity"
    Remember: the community is the customer who's money you depend on. no condescending language.

    Stop copy pasting updates (only slightly reworded). post a link to the original and then add only any new stuff. if there is no new stuff... just say so - no evasive excuses.

    stop pointing fingers.
    valve is not to blame for you not preparing a dev account earlier.
    abt is not to blame for using your badly documented and sometimes counter-intuitive engine in not-intended ways.
    don't forget: you are marketing your engine to amateur indies. it's the fault of your documentation, learning materials and support (and the engine's lack of ease of use), if they don't get how to do things right

    stop trying to behave like a big bad publisher. ea, activision, ubisoft, sony, microsoft - they can pull that shit and get away with it. but coming from someone as insignificant as you, that's just ridiculous.

    allow the tr-team to talk freely (at least using "my personal opinion / not official company stance" disclaimers)
     
  12. Jalicejade

    Jalicejade Master Jedi JJ, the Repop Leader aka Plant Fodder
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    @Volkoff , In all seriousness, I'd like to know what information you know that makes you defend them like you do.
    Do they constantly complain about our complaints?
    We have been through years of deception and waiting and we just want to see some progress. You are in the same boat that we are in, but the only difference is that you can see in the inside. You don't seem to agree with us and I don't understand why.
     
  13. Fatdragon

    Fatdragon Pax Gaming Member
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    *Starts handing out pitch forks*
     
  14. hooby

    hooby thinker of thoughts
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    We don't use pitch forks.

    We simply hand Foste some bacon for wrapping.
     
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  15. Fatdragon

    Fatdragon Pax Gaming Member
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    Okay then. *Hands Foste bacon*
     
  16. Jalicejade

    Jalicejade Master Jedi JJ, the Repop Leader aka Plant Fodder
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    I actually laughed out loud when I read that, hooby.

    I am being serious though. Every post Volkoff has made has been defensive and I'd like to know why. If he cannot tell me, then that is a question that I want Sarrene and company to answer. I want to know why we shouldn't just give up and move on like others have done.
     
  17. Ormir

    Ormir Pax Gaming Member
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    :(
    I find all this really depressing. If you guys find a game that looks promising for us to play make sure to message me on steam, I haven't been checking the forums lately. For now, I'm back to my 'given up on Repop' state.
     
    Breeding likes this.
  18. Foste

    Foste Lead guitarist of Skillet Bacon Cake.
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    We wrapping things in bacon up in here?
     
  19. Fatdragon

    Fatdragon Pax Gaming Member
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    Hell yeah.
     
  20. hooby

    hooby thinker of thoughts
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    My suggestions are meant seriously too.

    HAO would be a great community manager imho - because of how super-active he is.

    And those other points would imho improve communication a lot, could they pull those off. I don't believe they can though... I don't think they'd even try... at least not with more than token effort.

    You can't totally switch around a companies culture like that after seven years... they are set in their ways.
     
  21. Fatdragon

    Fatdragon Pax Gaming Member
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    I've known, well not personally HAO from other games, and he is really active in all of them I have seen him at. I actually talked with him in repop for a bit.
     
  22. hooby

    hooby thinker of thoughts
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    He was community manager for Fragmented for a while and did a great job.

    He knew a lot about the game, answered every question in the forums, helped people, had dev-quotes at the ready, and if there was something he could not answer/help with - he went to bug the devs to get the missing information.

    This of course only works, if the devs provide him with the info the needs, and allow him to use the information he has - without having to ask for permission first, or having lists of things he may talk about and may not talk about. And if not every answer he gets is "we don't know" - "we can't say" - "this is secret" - "this has not been decided yet" etc. He needs a certain base of available information to work with.
     
  23. Volkoff

    Volkoff ENKIDU'S CRAFTING GUY
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    I makes no promises on anything but I will raise your stuff up the food chain.
     
  24. hooby

    hooby thinker of thoughts
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    It's probably too late anyway.

    Back in 2015 under ABT we had 300 to 500 peak concurrent players each day, and the average player spend several hours with the game during any two weeks.
    Right now we have about 25 peak concurrent players a day, and the average total time a player spends ingame over two weeks, is down to 4 minutes (!!!).
    (Source: SteamSpy and SteamDB)

    They have driven this into the ground. Deep into the ground. I mean, they are working on it for 4 months now, and are not even able to give a rough estimate as to when the very first patch (which was already completed in 2015) might get deployed.

    They've made one bad decision after the other - fail after fail after fail...
    • Announcing the purchase before they had a team in place
    • Announcing on a friday (and then being away for the weekend)
    • Not preparing a Steam dev account ahead of time
    • Starting the servers up unchanged, unpatched
    • Starting sales again before having any clue how to do patches
    • Going for a massive size patch they then cannot finish
    • Doing all that stuff BEFORE figuring out the current state of the game
    • Not having an action-plan or a roadmap but just flying blind
    and so on, and so forth...

    It's the same with HeroEngine - was a great piece of tech back in 2010 when they bought it.
    Then: bad decision, bad decision, bad decision... and now HE is a piece of out-dated crap.

    You know, the core idea behind all game engine businesses is a follows:
    The cost of developing the engine is always the same - no matter how many games and devs do use the engine. So if you make one engine and use it for 20 games, each game theoretically has to pay only one twentieth compared to doing the engine themselves. If you then use the engine for 40 games, you can put twice as much money into developing the engine - which means every game gets a much better engine at the same price.

    The core principle here is, that your base costs are fixed - not dependent on how many games use your engine. So, update your engine, make it better - more devs will use it, more money for you - even better engine, even more devs, you can offer cheaper, even more devs, even more money for making an even better engine... etc.

    IF decided that they don't need that positive feedback loop. But instead they want to sell servers. Because hosting servers is something where your costs grow with each single game - and the more games use your engine, the more costs you have. And server hosting is a highly competitive market, where the profit margin is extremely small. So they don't have money to improve and update their engine, which means less devs use their engine, which means even less money, and so on and so forth.

    Great strategy!

    7 years. IF are limping along for 7 years now - and they have not achieved any of their company goals yet (you know, goals like "actually earning money"). All because of an endless string of bad decisions.

    And they are doing exactly the same with Repop.

    How clever do you have to be, to be able to tell, that putting online the (expensive) servers and starting sales again, without checking the state of the game and finding out whether you can actually patch it - is not exactly the best idea?
     
  25. Volkoff

    Volkoff ENKIDU'S CRAFTING GUY
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    I know much more than I should; it's both a blessing and a curse. They claim to be just as frustrated as all of us because of what they were given or not given, as it were. In my opinion, what I think happened was the upper management at IF grossly underestimated what they were getting when they decided to purchase the game from ABT. Whether you believe it or not, The Repopulation is/was broken; by the time the correct people had been hired and someone realized exactly how broken it was, the decision to re-open the servers had already been made.
     
  26. Fatdragon

    Fatdragon Pax Gaming Member
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    Hmm so yeah it sounds like they should/are basically starting from scratch.
     
  27. hooby

    hooby thinker of thoughts
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    I find that hard to believe. I'm a senior programmer with over 10 years of job experience. No games, but I've been leading some high profile projects.

    Repop is written entirely in HeroScript - and is written entirely against the API of the engine. That's a highly controlled environment.

    By my understanding, if it is technically possible to break things so thoroughly without any source code access...
    There have to be some major flaws in the way HeroScript and the API work.

    In any case... it might be easier to put the game on unreal engine. They'd get DX11 for free, would not have to fix the breakage, and UE offers faster progress while re-implementing everything.
    Also, if they turned just the networking portion of HE into a UE plugin, they might actually end up with something that sells well on the UE asset store.
     
    #147 hooby, May 19, 2017
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  28. Fatdragon

    Fatdragon Pax Gaming Member
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    Oh but lets not forget they own HE, so that wouldn't do that lol.
     
  29. hooby

    hooby thinker of thoughts
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    I know it's unofficially considered
    ... those impertinent backers who laid down money on the game - how dare they demand an estimate on when the first patch might hit, after only 4 months of nothing!
    But you know, IF did promise both general regular, as well as specific (in a few days) updates in multiple previous posts...

    I really, truly think you should not think of that as trolling, but rather considerate concern.
    It's rather sort of: "Are you okay? You said you'd call me last week, but I never heard from you, so I was worried. Especially since you previously made some hints at having caught the flu (or maybe something worse)."

    Try not to put this down as people trying to intentionally make IF look bad out of malice. Even if some people might harbor malicious intent - if you don't want to loose the very few remaining fans who have genuine concerns about the well-being of the game, you can't let yourself be trolled/baited into reacting dismissively or ignoring it entirely.
    You only ever react to the "trolls" and ignore the well-behaved masses. Of course this incites more and more people to use sharper language - as it's the only way to get answers. You should do things the other way - ignore the "trolls" and write answers that are meant for the genuinely concerned only.

    Not addressing the genuine concerns of the well-meaning majority of the fanbase (but instead putting all focus on shooting down the few supposed "trolls") might be their biggest mistake of all. This effectively depopulated the community.
     
  30. Smallot

    Smallot Pax Gaming Member
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    Im not a backer but what hooby is talking about is similar to a publily traded company giving updates to its investors. Maybe a state of the game email to the backers alone would be enough?
     
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